Heading into Stage 3 of Challenger League I talked with Mr.B about roster changes, map pools, operator balance, and more. While he didn’t take up my Echo shotty suggestion, the dream still lives on.
I want to start at the start of Stage Two, because I interviewed you going into the start of it and you said, broadly speaking, this wasn’t necessarily the roster that we wanted, but I think it has the potential to get to top four. And you didn’t just make it into top four, you were in possible contention for first up until the last playday. With that in mind, how do you think the season went for you last stage?
Really well. We lost a couple early games, just kind of sucked. Especially the one against Karn&co. We probably should have had that. That sucked to lose, but we really sorted our stuff out. Got our stuff together. We have a few really good players on that roster. As you can see. We would have kept 4/5s, but Woos had a bit of a problem. He’s getting some surgery.
He was really good and so was Gaveni. And Packer actually too. Although he was just the sub in Stage One. They all really picked it up.
Yeah, really, really good. I love the progress out of all of them. I’m only here because of them. Everyone put in 110%. Even though I think we started out maybe individually, definitely as a team, behind. We only had a week of practice before our first playday. We put in a ton of work, moreso than the other teams, and we really pulled through and we’re able to get further than anybody else.
We ended up with three of the players that I really wanted to play with and they were three breakout players.
I think that kind of shows with your map pool, honestly, because you started the first play day on Oregon, a real standard map for any comp team. But then you started branching out into Kafe and Theme Park in the second week. And then there was even more diversity from there. Was the map pool somewhere you guys really put in the work or was it focusing on just nailing down a handful of maps and trying to work the bans to get there?
No, we learned a ton of different maps. I think we had the potential to play, it was 7 of the 9 maps that we were ready to play. So that really helped us out because it allowed us to do the map bans in our favor. Although we kind of, scuffed it up a little bit towards the end, overvaluing our Chalet.
Still you pulled out the Chalet against 1Shot, probably one of the most notorious Chalet teams in Challenger League, and pulled out a regulation win against them. I think that speaks to the strength of the map pool in itself, where you can take the fight to the opponent on one of their best maps as well.
Yeah. So we actually shared a very similar map pool to 1Shot. So we ended up just going for the map that we would be most comfortable on.
I want to talk about the roster a little bit before we jump too much into the meat and potatoes of Stage Two. The first question is about TragikL, because he was the top rated player of Stage One. Was him not being on the roster his choice or was that the team’s choice? Obviously the stats don’t tell the whole story. But you look at the stats, and you expect that player on a team in Challenger League, right?
I absolutely did not want to play with TragikL. Stats really don’t mean all too much. There’s a lot of players who have had really good stages, and shown that they have really good stats, but that doesn’t make you a good player. Right? Especially when it depends on how you’re getting those stats and how you are outside of just your stats. He’s [TragikL] a really, really difficult player to work with. And I think he brings a lot of negatives to the table that are unseen in a match. But I think not having him around it’s actually a huge benefit towards our team, even if it may not seem like that statistically.
That’s why I asked, because you look at the stats and you think well, how could you but then, obviously, there’s so much more going on behind the scenes and I figured that’s not the only part of the story that you have to consider.
All I’ll say is, he was the number one rated Challenger League player. And yet coming out of Challenger League Stage One. Not a single team picked him up for Challenger League. And the top T3 teams wouldn’t either. So it shows there’s something clearly not quite right there.
Pivoting there to, not necessarily the direct replacement, but one of the players that you picked up: Gaveni. I feel like he had a breakout stage, he just kind of came out of nowhere. Where’d you find this guy?
If you’ve been watching the last two Challenger quals or keeping any kind of notes on them, you will see that in the last two JJ [JJBlazt] has made the finals. So the first time it was the Stage Two quals, He was playing with Gavin and Packer still. They made the finals and then they lost to RentFree in the finals. They kind of screwed it up. And it was 7-7 matchpoint or something and they screwed it up. But I’ve been scrimming against them all the time, I’d realized how good these players were and I knew I wanted them on the roster.
Basically the players that I was really interested in the offseason were: Hat, who got picked up to Karn&co. Woos who had been relegated from Outlast, Gaveni and Packer. Those were my four people I was interested in. And my plan was, going into the off season and we were going to be getting rid of Trist and TragikL. That was my initial plan.
But a whole bunch of stuff went sideways, it ended up with me being pretty much the only person on the team. Trist said he’d come back, even though I dropped him. So I had dropped him and he came back. Then we got Packer, our sub to play in [Challenger League], and that was our 3/5s. So we were barely allowed to play. Then we got Gavin and Woos. Hat had decided he didn’t want to join us because he thought this roster would be too shaky. So we ended up with three of the players that I really wanted to play with and they were three breakout players.
Picking up Gity and Tristan [for Stage Three], what was the thought process behind picking up those two?
So Tristan is another JJ player, coming from the same team. He [JJBlazt] makes really good players, because he’s a really good IGL. The fact that you don’t see him in CL is a bit of a crime. But that’s the same problem with players getting picked up for the NAL. If you’re an IGL, you’re less likely to get picked up. It’s your spot or another IGL, just the way it is. But he makes really good players. Tristan’s the right player. Playing against him [in SFCL], he’s absolutely insane. As with Gity, I think when you’re looking at vertical players in the league, it’s really obvious who were the top players and Gity is right up there. So we went through we could potentially get and Gity was up on the list and we were able to get them, so I’m just really happy to have them here.
You guys went from an unlikely underdogs picking up like shaky wins to towards the end of the season, you were kind of viewed as one of the top dogs [In CL].
Oh, yeah, everyone had us pinned to win it all.
That shift from being the underdog where anything is technically a win, to the shift of being a top team in the league where everyone’s looking to take you down. Did that shift trip you guys up at all mentally?
Well, really, I’ll be honest. That’s only a public shift. From a little bit into our own practices we can see how we’re going to do as a team. And public opinion, they can only really see what our roster is. So they’re going into this seeing Trist, who is a low rated player, Woos, who just got relegated, and Gavin and Packer, who they basically have no idea who they are. Right? So they’re going into this and going like, okay, this is a bottom tier roster. Pretty much every prediction had us getting relegated or just barely scraping by.
But we’re going into these practices, we’re able to practice against teams and go, Okay, this is what we’re capable of. And as I said, I think we were a top four placement team. That’s what we could shoot for. That was before we started doing proper practices. Once we really got into the meat of it, we were feeling it. We’re looking really good.
That’s always something that broadcasts like to emphasize narratively is; this team used to be an underdog and it was always a surprise when they win. But when you’re expecting something of them, that’s when they started having issues. So I was kind of curious if that was anything like even that was on your mind to be cautious of?
Yeah, no, I’ll be honest, our issues towards the end of the season were primarily just going to the same map over and over again, along with just a mix of a few different things. And I had a really bad playday. A whole bunch of things went into us losing our last two playdays, those two games. But it’s not that we fell off. Because if you look at the game we played versus LG, we went in there and we won it no problem.
And so it’s like, if we’re going in these playdays, it’s not that we suddenly in one week became a worse team or anything, we just had a bad playday or two and it was actually just one weekend. So you know, that happens. Not much you can do about that, other than be better.
You guys used Sens on Chalet for the kitchen bombsight once or twice. What are your thoughts on the operator? Because that’s not exactly the biggest pool of data, but it’s also more tries than other teams have given the op.
So we also did it [played Sens] on Theme Park on playday one. Sens is useful, but I think you need to be a more structured team to use him. Looking at Pro League, that’s gonna be teams like DarkZero, if you’re looking at top four teams in terms of how they play. I think those are the only teams that really get any value out of him. Typically Sens needs to be used by a really structured team that can do the regimented plan and then go for a solid execute, because he works well in that kind of system. The other problem is that he’s very situational, because they can’t have a Warden, or else, it’s hurting you. You have to be very aware of their operator lineup.
It can be also used if you’re a more aggressive team and you’re looking for a rush plant. I think that’s actually what we might have gone for on our Chalet. We were a very structured team last stage. So, we just did kind of our step by step, a little bit of setup, and then we just went for our fast execute with Sens. It can work. The biggest thing was Sens though is that he has what is considered to be a pretty fucking terrible gun. Really low fire rate, minimal damage, it’s just not great when you compare it to any of the other Attackers. As well as that he’s a three armor. So you need to have a perfect situation for his gadget for it to even be worth considering.
Well, talking about on the other side of the power scale; Azami. Despite how powerful this operator is and how frequent play of her was. TTK didn’t actually seem to use her all that much. at all. Was there a particular reason?
Yeah. So I think it’s a mixture of a few things. Azami is a much more fluid operator, and we were much more regimented. Playstyle-wise, it wasn’t perfect for us. Second, I think it’s that we didn’t have a great Azami player. The players who would want to play her didn’t particularly do too well on the operator. So when we could avoid it, we would. And I think we ended up just finding that we can do better without it. She is a super strong operator and I think she has way too many of her knives, but it’s just that it doesn’t work for us. It didn’t work for us as a team. There’s teams that are going to do better playing away from the meta. Right. And that’s just how it was for us.
Talking about ops, I gotta ask: the Caviera on Theme Park. I know, you kind of briefly mentioned it in the postgame interview, but is that really just only against Nøkk or is there like more thought process behind it?
Typically, it’s with that site [Drug/Storage] people want a player playing that yellow hallway. It’s really important. It brings a lot of value in that late round or they’ll just have a player pressure dragon door in the late round. It’s really important to have that kind of pressure on the map if you’re doing a top clear. So a lot of teams will send a solo player on the late round right there, often a Nøkk but it can be just about anything.
I’ve found that in those kinds of situations where a lot of teams like to send a solo player it’d be really valuable to bring a Cav. Because yeah, the Cav isn’t that great of an operator in many ways, but if she does get that interrogation you’ve won the round. As long as you’re a decent team you instantly win. So finding the opportunities where you can get that, and even if it’s a risk, it can be worthwhile. Especially on a tertiary site, like a Drug/Storage, where your win rate is already gonna be quite low. It’s definitely worth taking that risk. And that’s what we do. You’ll likely be seeing it on our Drug hold, but I’ll never keep Cav out of the question.
This is just bias from me back when I was playing, but could I interest you in an Echo shotty strat? Just anywhere?
I’ve looked a lot at Echo shotty. The idea of it is very helpful, because then you don’t necessarily need to run a Smoke or a Mute. The problem is that his secondary just can’t perform the same way Smoke’s does. In the current meta, you need to just have that gun skill, and when you’re comparing Echo’s 1.5x to the supernova. It doesn’t make sense.
Around Playday 7 or so you started making a lot more proactive plays on defense. Like jumping from Trophy wall versus Vipers. Was this a conscious decision on your part to start getting more proactive? Or was this just something that you did and it looks odd out of game but makes sense in game?
In a way it was. My performance in Stage Two wasn’t ideal. If you saw my performance Stage One, for the large majority of it I had a really good record and was looking really good as an individual. But in Stage Two, especially in the early days, I had some really rough play days. I was basically just fighting to get out of that. So switching up how I was playing here and there. I think for me as a player, if I can be a little bit more on the aggressive side, it helps me out, especially on the defending half. If I just let people walk into me, I’ll struggle a bit more. That’s also just part of the meta, but especially for me.
With relegations removed, do you have any major concerns about the future of Challenger League? Is this a realistic ladder for whole teams to work through or is this going to turn into just the player farm where you make a functioning team just to lose a key player to an NAL team here, lose a player there to another NAL team. Is that a realistic worry for you right now?
Yeah, that is a realistic worry. I think the problem with a system that, without any kind of relegations, is that a lot of players get left behind that do have the capability, but might not be exceptional. Capable players that will always exist, but you need to also have an opportunity for them to perform. Make it up to the next level without having to switch up how they play, to develop.
There’s a lot of players who bring a lot to the table, but aren’t going to be either statistically good, or aren’t going to be a great addition to another team. Even though to their own team they’re invaluable. Especially for somebody like me, it’s kind of difficult for me to necessarily get on another team as an IGL.
It’s kind of scary to see that relegation system being removed. But I think it is good in a way, because it does mean that at least the NAL is gonna be a lot more stable organization wise. If you’re looking to invest in Siege as an org, you’re going, “Hey, if I buy the spot, I don’t have to worry about potentially losing it because my team’s bad” Which is obviously a good thing. There are ups and downs to it. It really depends on the kind of player you are, who you are, or where you are. But for me, it’s a little scary. For others, it’s really, really good.
Because it’s more focused on NAL teams picking up individual players, are you worried that certain players will start playing for stats or to look good individually over playing to win? because there is that discrepancy where sometimes playing to win means your stats take a hit, or you look dumb, making a play so that someone else can succeed.
I think there’s already players that absolutely do that because it’s typically a lot easier to make it in Pro League getting picked up than to relegate another team. That’s just the way it is. It’s been shown that all the best players, all the ones getting picked up, they’re always gonna be on the winning teams. If your team’s last place, but you’ve got good stats, nobody cares. All right? That’s just the honest truth of it.
Occasionally they’ll get picked up here and there, but you really have to be standing out in that case. Somebody who’s getting a kill or two just to pad stats- these teams watch the games. They don’t just pick up players because they have good stats. You need to actually be a good team player. You need to be doing everything you need to win your team rounds and not to get statistically good scores. I’m not exceptionally worried about it, but it does happen. And I’m sure it’ll happen more and more, but it doesn’t really change that end goal.
So, for Reality TV now, what is the goal? Is it still just winning Challenger League and reevaluate after you’ve done that for Stage Three? Or is there something else that you guys are looking for going into this next stage?
Pretty much. That’s always the goal, just to win. I’m here to win, everything else is just a bonus. I’m a super competitive person and I don’t think anything’s going to change. Even once I win, if I’m not in Pro League yet I’ll just win it [CL] again.
What are your thoughts on the Challenger league format and where it could improve with regards to the general format? The 10 play days, the Bo1s, the way the map bans work?
I like best of 1s, but they prioritize a lot of teams. And I think moving to best of 3 would really be nice, but with the time and everything, the way it works.. I don’t think best of 3s are really viable for Challenger League. Although I think they should obviously be a thing in Pro League, especially with a nine map pool. It’s silly to test 1/9 of your map pool. It’s not great to really be testing these teams in best of 1s, it’s not the same. So many games are won and lost in the map bans.
Would best of 2s be ideal in that sense, or would that be even worse?
Competitively, I think best of 2s make a lot of sense logically. But if you’re actually playing in a best of 2 it is the worst, least enjoyable thing ever. Because as soon as a team wins a map, all of a sudden nobody cares. The best the other team can do is draw. Drawing is the most boring thing as a spectator so it’s the most boring thing as a player. You just don’t care. Right? Of course draws happen, but once you lose that first map every player’s is going “Fuck, what’s the point?”
I do think it would be nice to us 3s, I don’t think it’s doable in terms of the logistics of it all.. Aside from that, I think ten playdays is great. Just to go round robin, every team plays every team. I really like the system.
Is there anything you’d like to close out with, anyone to shout out?
Shout out to my current teammates, love all of them. Right. My best wishes towards Woos, I really hope he gets better there. And then just stay tuned. We got some interesting things cooking up. I’m really excited for this team.