I had the pleasure to talk with Forceful about various topics from his time Coaching, working with Forrest and Callout before Astralis, building the new DarkZero roster, his future as a coach/broadcast talent, and more.
So start out with, you have it on your Twitter bio and when I was doing research for this interview, you have sent a lot of people to the Pro League. From Forrest to Callout, you’ve worked with other people like Tomas, Creators, Jaay, Melted, Abunai, Dream, Yoggah, the list just keeps on going. So what do you think are the traits and qualities that make solid pro league players, having seen so many of these people succeed?
Well, I think the first thing is definitely they have to have the talent. Something that can be worked for with the right work ethic, but the biggest thing that contributes to their success is their ability to shoot, the ability to frag. And then the second thing is attitude. Attitude is king. I’ve been saying this for a long time, you know, ego is the enemy and all that.
But those who aren’t willing to put in the work or just want to talk about working, those are the ones that typically, they’ll rise up to Tier 2, do okay for a little bit and then fall by the wayside. And it’s something that I try to preach on my coaching, which I’ve gotten a lot of help from Callout with this. Manage your ego, put the work in, and try and maintain a positive attitude around your teammates. And if you have the talent, you have the attitude, you’ll make Pro League, but it’s very rare that you find someone with both.
I’m kind of talking about that because I think one of the biggest successes, at least in my mind, was the work you did on APE. Specifically with Callout and Forrest, but also Jaay, Abunai, and I want to say Yoggah was also on APE at one point. What are your thoughts on Callout and Forrest and their progress on APE?
I have so much respect for those two. Those guys got a lot of crap from the community when they got dropped off of eUnited and how terrible their situation was. Everyone just saw the stats and saw the gameplay, and just automatically threw a lot of blame on these two guys. And it wasn’t entirely their fault. There was a weird coaching system going on in that team that they were on.
But for both of them to just say, “Alright, good to go. We’re going to restart up and we’re going to build a new roster. We’re going to keep pushing through”. And those two men grinded and just stayed silent. They heard the critics, and they just ignored the noise. They just put their heads down and they worked.Â
Forrest, specifically in his gameplay, improved exponentially and Callout’s strategic depth and the amount of work that he did on the back end, and his IGLing is something that I have yet to see kind of replicated in any team that I’ve been on. I think he’s one of the best IGLs I’ve worked with. But his mechanical ability held him back a bit. That translates perfectly into his coaching, which is why I think you see Astralis going to Invite going forward here because he’s not only a good strategist, but he’s also a leader. And he motivates people to be better and to push themselves harder than they ever were before. And I think some of that rubbed off onto me.Â
Before I was working with Callout, I was on Mirage. I thought I was working hard, but I wasn’t relative to what I was doing on APE. And he showed me how much harder I could push myself, how much better I could work, and just how to tune out the noise and suppress your ego. And once we started getting down to business, there was a period for about five months where we just weren’t touched, from basically December all the way until we won Challenger League Stage 1 of the 2021 season.
You touched on Callout as the IGL right there. But having worked with a bunch of other teams like Mirage, for example, and ex-Parallax gaming, and Tempo Storm before that. When it comes to an IGL, what do you think are the successful traits that Callout really had that other players or other IGLs that you’ve worked with maybe lacked or didn’t have quite yet?
So, obviously, to be an IGL, you need to be decisive. You need to have a good, strong initiative. But one of the things that set Callout apart from other IGLs is he would listen when it was appropriate. So he made sure everyone on every team that he was on felt heard and appreciated. There was no one who could just like sulk away or go with the flow, their input was needed. And he made sure it was time and place.
So one of the things that he did really well is he made sure that when we were in game or in a scrim, we’re focused on the next round only. What happened in the past doesn’t matter. And something that I helped them with was we would start writing down, like, if there was a problem in the previous round and we wanted to address it, we would write it down. And then we would go “Alright guys, next round,” and we’d focus in on the next thing. So that way, we’re not starting on the backfoot.Â
A lot of teams and IGLs have the problem of trying to fix the previous round before they go into the next one. And with the Callout’s next round mentality, he basically allowed them to have the best, perfect scenario. No confusion in prep phase, no issues with drone economy or anything like that. No one’s distracted. We’re focused in and then we get the most out of our practices.
And at the end, what was really important on our team is we did a debrief where everybody got to say all the mistakes that we had during the game, and we would talk about it. And usually that would take about an hour after each practice, but he would hear what was said, and then he would go to work after practice. He would do the extra work on top of it, where he would start to “Okay there’s an issue with how we take Pillar on Oregon basement.” “Okay, Melted says he has this issue, Forrest says he has this issue”. So he would go and problem solve how to fix it on his own time. And then next day for practice, he’d be like, “Alright guys, this is how we’re going to take Pillar based off of what Melted said, based on what Forrest said, from what Forceful said”.. And then we would push it forward and we would have a solution. And then we would drill and work. It was his selflessness that kind of set him apart from other IGLs. I do want to say Troy Canadian, obviously, he’s in the same realm as Callout in terms of his IGLing. Not just what he did in games, it’s what he did out of game that set him apart.
Yeah, that lead by example, not just not just talking the talk, but also walking the walk. With regards to modern day Challenger League, do you think that we have some promising IGLs? Do you think that we’re kind of at a low point in the quality of IGLs in Challenger League in NA? Are we in like a middle ground, or do we have a real lack of IGLs at the T2 level?
At the T2 level, I would say there’s not a whole lot of like solid IGLs that are individual. I have Mr.B and Poison immediately as good young IGLs. But what we’re starting to see in Siege with the pace change, and how fast it’s going, is everyone needs to be able to kind of micro IGL, or shotcall is what we call it. Where they’re able to, you know, direct their teammates and make decisions on the fly. Because there’s just so much information, right? When it comes to utility, or equipment or drones. You know, are we gonna get flanked, are we not getting flanked?
Anybody from your entry player to your flex player to your second support, they all have to be able to, on the fly, see the problem in front of them, analyze it, and make a decision that everyone can act on. And I think with these teams that are IGLing by committee, they’re a lot faster paced than a lot of other teams that have to rely on an IGL to have to hand hold players to do what they need to do. So I would say T2, like I said, Poison and Mr.B are two who can do the old school IGLing. But what I’m starting to see a little bit more in T2, especially in the top teams, is everyone being able to shotcall going forward, that’s gonna be the future of Siege.
We’ve seen other games like CSGO, and not quite Valorant yet, but the meta is kind of cyclical. Not only in a micro sense of, oh, Ying and Glaz are more powerful, then they get nerfed, and then they kind of get buffed again and people mess around with it, and then they enter the meta again. We have these ops that enter and exit the meta, but also stylistically. We’ve seen in CS that it goes from a very fast and loose style of play, to when Astralis came in and just dominated, that game went to a very structured, tactical, every moment of the round, we have a plan. And then it returned back to a loose style of play after Astralis fell off. Do you think that we’re in our own micro resurgence of that, since we’re coming out of the 20 second meta? We’re in this very fast and loose style. Do you think there’s any potential that we’re going to go back to a more tactical, structured style of Siege anytime soon or is this kind of a future as you see it?
I think we’re kind of going into that. Like you said, it’s cyclical. You have your aggressive play style, you have your structured but fast play style, and then you have your solid structured play style. And normally it focuses around utility and attacker’s ability to clear it. I think with the removal of grenades from a couple key operators that really put, especially Finka, for example, I think it really did make defender utility a lot stronger, and it gave defenders a little bit more security in terms of where they can position. They’re not going to get naded from below anymore.Â
I think that was what was really propelling the fast paced meta. I know everyone likes to talk about LMGs but you could run Nøkk and still be fast paced with that gun. So with the removal of just two sets of nades, the whole game is slowing down. And we’re going back to a more defender sided, where good strategy seems to be prevailing over that really, really fast gameplay. Because the problem they’re going to run into is they’re going to run into a banshee, they’re going to run into a Kapkan trap, they’re going to run into a guy playing behind a shield. So it’s kind of slowing down again. And I think teams that are able to identify that the strategy element is stronger are going to be succeeding going into Invite and at this current Major.
So talking about Kapkan, because he’s always a bit of a favorite of mine, I think what he brings to the table is kind of underrated. What are your thoughts on the operator? Because he’s in this weird place where we see him played a fair bit, but also we never really saw him played it until like, what? Five, seven years into this game’s lifespan? What do you think is causing this rise in Kapkan’s pick rate?
Well, I think it has to do again with talking about the meta and how fast paced it is. It’s really hard to be fast paced when you have to clear a bunch of traps. And traps seem to be the great counter to the lurker kind of play style where you have Nøkk coming up from the basement and try not to make noise and try to get a stealth pick with a grenade or something like that. And they’re [the Nøkk] not paying attention to Kapkan traps as often. They’re getting hunkered down by barbed wire. If you want to shoot a Kapkan, you gotta make noise. So kind of it kind of plays into that.Â
And it’s just a good way for teams on the defense, especially against somebody more aggressive, like Brazilian teams, for example, or teams from Mexican Pro League, or even Astralis. Where if you bring a lot of traps, you’re going to be able to contain the aggression of your opponent, or at least slow them down quite a bit. Otherwise, they’re going to be taking a lot of unnecessary damage. A good Kapkan against the right team, and that’s the key part here: against the right team, really can make a massive impact. But if you’re playing against a team, like for example, SSG or DarkZero, a little bit more methodical and slow in their approach, the Kapkan is going to be useless. So as long as there’s really fast and aggressive teams, I think Kapkan will remain a pretty strong operator in this current meta.
In the 2021 Six Invitational qualifiers, I want to say it was that or CCS, I don’t remember what season. But you started working with SmitaSous, the current coach of Arial Arise, for the first time. He’s worked with a lot of really good teams, he was with Parabellum first, and he has been on Arial Arise, which just placed second in Challenger League. Having worked with this guy, what do you think his strengths are as a coach?
Well first, he’s an analyst. I think his biggest strength is his work ethic when it comes to just getting the job done when it comes to gathering data and analysis. He’s super easy going. He’s very fun to be around. He’s a little quirky, sometimes he does some cringe stuff. But you know, when he’s on your team, you always appreciate it because it’s coming from the right intent. And he’s just a great vibes guy to be around. But the biggest thing is like, when I was coaching with him, I could ask him to do any task, whether large or small, and he wouldn’t like back talk or give attitude. He’d be like, “Alright, cool. Well, I’ll get that done,” and then the next day or a day or two later, depending on the size of the project, it would just be done. And he, I don’t think he gets enough appreciation. I think with a strong coach. He’s a tremendous asset to any team.
He’s a self starter too. He’s got a lot of initiative when it comes to his own development and his own growth. So he’s someone who, I’m not the greatest Excel sheet guy. And so I’m not the person who was in a position to teach Elim how to do any of that. But what I encouraged him to do was to go find people who were. And throughout the course of the year, and I would say about 15 months that I worked with him, he would go and get help from people like DrewSpark or other analysts in the scene that would basically help propel his own game to the point where now, he’s at the Tier 1 level in terms of his ability to gather stats and data and provide analysis.
So in addition to being on the Challenger League broadcast, you’ve also been working with a variety of orgs, for example an analyst scouting role for Astralis in the Berlin Major. And then you were working with DZ as a scout and then also, Mint said, for helping build the team going into SI. You mentioned before the interview that you’re not sure which way you’re going, but are you in the market as a potential coach for any T1, T2 orgs out there, or are you trying to balance both broadcast and coaching right now?
Honestly, the priority, I think, at this point would be Tier 1. I’m not interested in coaching Tier 2 anymore. At this point, I’ve accomplished everything that I want to accomplish in T2. I won twice in the Canadian Division. I also won a stage in CL. So there’s about a whole year back to back to back of winning each stage that I was in. So I really don’t feel like I have a lot more to accomplish there.
I do want to compete at the Tier 1 level. And I am in the market for any team that is interested in picking up a coach at this time. But it needs to be a contract that makes sense to me and the amount of sacrifice you gotta get. Because it’s one of the things that I don’t think gets acknowledged a lot when it comes to coaching staff is, the players put in a lot of sacrifice and their extra hours. But coaches put in a lot of time and effort too. They have to give up things like time with family, time with friends, dating life, all that stuff. So if there’s an org that is interested and they have a contract that is reasonable, I’m more than interested to coach in a Tier 1 level. But I think with Tier 2 at this time, I’m probably going to pass.Â
Talking about how Mint said you were helping build the team, without spoiling the actual roster itself. When you were scouting out who to pick up for the team going into SI, because obviously Hyper may not come back. Skys, is he in or out? There’s rumors floating around that maybe Ecl9pse is on the bench. Whether he is still there, nobody really knows yet officially. With that particular team, was the focus that we’re going to make the best possible team for winning the Six Invitational first and foremost, regardless of that means picking up tenured veterans, or were you looking to build for the future, which org has historically done by picking up young talent similar to njr and Panbazou? Or is it somewhere in the middle?
It’s a little somewhere in the middle. So obviously SI coming around the corner. The team worked really hard to earn that spot. They’re obviously looking to be very competitive and set themselves up for success for SI. I think one of the blessings that they have as a roster is the fact that they did not make the Major this November. Which gives them a lot of time to look at a lot of talent and build the roster that they want.
So what they were looking for was how are they going to build to go into the future and yet still remain competitive. And I think the fact that they’re not going to the November Major gave them a little bit extra time to pick up maybe a young, talented, fragging capability player and set themselves up for success. And of course, you know, because it’s a Major they want the veteran core to be solid. They want good shot callers so they’re putting themselves in a position where they’re getting a little bit of both.
I don’t want to spoil the roster because it’s not my place to do that. But I think going into the major this is probably- since I was working with the team the current iteration of the rosters is the best it’s ever been and they’re only in November. They’ve got a great schedule. Mint’s set up a very solid plan from now till SI and they’ve got an amazing org behind them. I think they’re in a very strong position to be a top team at SI, maybe even win the whole thing depending on how hard they work over the next couple of months.
That’s really exciting to hear because I’ve been a Canadian fan ever since I started watching Siege back in Year 1 Season 3. So hearing there’s a chance he’s going for number three, that’s always exciting.
Me too. I just want to say it was awesome to work with Troy. He’s one of those guys that got me into the competitive scene. The whole EG/Penta game was the first game of Pro League I ever really watched, and getting the chance to work with him and seeing how his mind works and how he views the game has tremendously improved my ability to also look at the game and understand how it’s played at an international level.
That’s super cool to hear. So to close out, because you’ve worked with just so many so many quality players, I just want to speed run your thoughts on some people you’ve worked with throughout the years and maybe some current CL talent that you haven’t necessarily worked with, but you’ve been watching for for the past year and might have some thoughts on. So I’m starting off with Trippen.
Trippen? Aw, he’s an awesome guy. He’s really funny to work with. He keeps the vibes, light in practice all the time. And I think he was one of those players that kind of flew under the radar a little bit. I don’t know why he was taken out of Tier 1, but I do know when he was on our team, he was our lead by example player, and helped bring a lot of stability to the roster when we needed it most.
Creators from Tempo Storm.
Oh my god. The nastiest mechanics. There’s only been three players that completely shook me to my core in terms of their mechanics. Creators was one, I would say Freak is another, and I would say njr is the third. Just very clean mechanics, no extra wasted movement. And when he wants to show up, he’s so, so scary to play against.
Tomas.
Tomas man, Thomas is- He’s quite a character. I like him because he’s very hungry. He’s very passionate. And every time you work with a guy like that, and you feel the hunger and passion, he inspires you to kind of work harder, and to put your best foot forward. I know he’s gotten some flack for some attitude, but I think if he’s got the right coaching staff around him, he can be one heck of a player and one heck of a teammate for his team.
All right, sweet. Jaay and Forrest.
Jaay and Forrest. First, I’ll say Jaay was one of the most criminally underrated players in the entire game. Maybe it’s my fault as a coach that I didn’t really help market them at all, to help illuminate what they do on the team, but both those players are criminally underrated. Their shotcalling, their IGLing, their decision making, their ability to read situations, I think was unparalleled. Jaay was often put in bad situations on his current roster in Arial Arise, but if you go back and look at the stage that we won on APE, he was one of our most critically important players. He won us so many clutches and so many rounds off of his shotcalling and IGLing that he was honestly probably the difference maker for that stage. I’m kind of upset to see him hang them up, but I wish he would come back.Â
And then Forrest again, same situation, just a criminally misunderstood player. There’s an old saying, you know, it’s like, ‘good players play the game well, great players make their own game and make everyone else play the way that they want to play’. Forrest does that with his tempo, with his aggression, with his ability to just find gaps and exploit teams. I think that’s what his strong suit always was. Also, his ability to call executes using utility like smokes or Yings is some of the best I’ve ever seen. Both those players I felt like are Pro League material, unfortunately for Jaay, he just got a bad chance with a roster and position that didn’t really benefit him. There was a lot of issues on beastcoast. And I guess that I’m sad to see him go but he’s going to be a good friend for the rest of my life.
Moving on to some more current CL talent. Kilo
Kilo, I haven’t had a lot of time to work with Kilo. I’ve played against him or competed against him now though, for three years. And he’s an IGL that I have a lot of respect for. He puts in a lot of work. He’s very true to his team, his core principles, he doesn’t sway from very much. And he makes a lot of good decisions in game, whether that be you know, opening up frags with nades or knowing when to get aggressive on defense. Just one of those absolute clutch players that can steal games from opponents, who otherwise thought he was unassuming but he was an absolute threat. Someone I would like to maybe work with in the future.
Cool, Mr.B, and then we’ll close out with Silent.
Okay, so Mr.B, I think is…I don’t know if you know this but way back in the day. Way, way back, the first teamI ever coached, Mr.B was on it.
Oh my God
We used to be on this team called Slaughterhouse back in the day. Now I don’t want to say I coached him, like it had anything to do with how successful he has now, it was me in my very infancy of coaching. I have coached him for maybe three weeks tops or so just to qualify what I’m saying here. But he’s grown a lot. At the time, he was very argumentative and hot headed. And I’ve seen how he’s cooled down quite a bit. And the fact that he’s working so solidly with Fett, as a coach has shown his own character development. And one thing I’ve noticed throughout this year too, was his mechanical ability is constantly improving.
So between that and you know, winning all of Stage 3 and the playoffs, without dropping a series or a map is just quite impressive. I love to see that growth and eventually, he will be in Tier 1. Whether he’s ready or not right now remains to be seen. That’s going to be for each individual team to figure out but I think if he keeps at it and keeps his head down and keeps grinding, you’re gonna see him in Tier 1 because he’s got the right mindset for it and the proper drive for it.
Last one, Silent from LG.
Silent from LG, I thought you’re gonna ask me about Silent from Mirage.
Oh no, I’m not trying to stir up any drama.
Silent from LG. He’s nasty. That guy, easily top two talent in all of CL right now mechanically, just from what you see on the output, on the score sheet. Just how he can just take over games. Like Oregon, I think he drops 16 kills consistently every time he plays it. Just an absolute threat and a menace kind of player. And one of those players, as a coach, when you’re playing against him and you watch him get taken down, you’re like, okay, all right, we have a chance this round. But as long as he is up that round aint over. Ever.
I think he belongs in T1, just based off performance alone, and it’s kind of up to him on the personal level and on the marketing to kind of get himself into that position. But for me, there’s no reason why he could not be on a team. And if he has a solid coach behind him with good mentorship, everything else will fall into place for him. He’s one of those guys who needs some structure built around him, he can’t just be able to do what he wants.
Then to close out this interview, anything you’d like to say to fans to like teams to whoever?
Oh, I just want to say I’ve been doing this now for four years and I’ve learned on every team I’ve been on. There’s been ups and downs but I think as a whole it’s been a very positive experience. I have some of the best friends that I had in my whole life and I plan on keeping them for the rest of my life. You know, I have no hard feelings against anyone.